West Wing Actors Mobilizing for Impact — A Chat with Mary McCormack and Melissa Fitzgerald

Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack are the authors of the new book, What's Next: A Backstage Pass to The West Wing, its cast and crew, and its enduring legacy of service.

Melissa is an actor, producer, and social justice advocate. As an actor, she's best known for her seven-year role as Carol on the award winning television series, The West Wing. While in Hollywood, Melissa co-founded Voices in Harmony, a mentoring program that uses theater to work with historically underserved teens. In 2013, she left Hollywood to champion justice system reform at All Rise, where she is at the forefront of engaging the public in the expansion of treatment courts and advancing justice system responses for individuals and communities.

Mary is an actor, producer, and activist who played Deputy National Security Advisor Kate Harper on The West Wing, a Tony nominated Broadway actor, Broadway actress, she's also known for diversity of roles across film, television, and theater, including her portrayal of Deputy U. S. Marshal Mary Shannon on the TV series In Plain Sight, and her Tony nominated turn as Gretchen in Boeing, Boeing. Mary is an outspoken advocate for a whole host of causes from social justice and women's rights to veterans issues and criminal justice reform.

Listen to the full episode here.

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ON THIS EPISODE

[00:00:00] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack, authors of the new book, What's Next: A Backstage Pass to The West Wing

[00:02:06] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on what they are most passionate about

[00:03:53] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on where they get their passions for acting and for service

[00:08:02] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on how Martin Sheen and The West Wing influenced their choices to be of service to certain organizations

[00:14:33] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on writing What's Next: A Backstage Pass to The West Wing together

[00:18:12] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on including key episodes from the show in the book

[00:18:52] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on choosing the title What's Next for their book

[00:20:56] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on how relevant The West Wing still is

[00:21:58] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on why Wingnuts still find hope in the show

[00:23:47] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on what they learned about their West Wing castmates that surprised him

[00:28:45] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on including the behind the scenes members of The West Wing family in the book

[00:36:22] Mary McCormack on Moms Demand Action

[00:39:26] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on advice for people who want to get involved in causes that matter to them

[00:44:52] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on what they hope people will take away from the book

[00:47:22] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on how people can get the book What's Next: A Backstage Pass to The West Wing

[00:47:59] Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack on their dreams for themselves and their dreams for women

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Passionistas: Hi, we're sisters, Amy and Nancy Harrington, the founders of The Passionistas Project. We've created an inclusive sisterhood where passion driven women come to get support, find their purpose, and feel empowered to transform their lives and change the world. On every episode, we discuss the unique ways in which each woman is following her passions, talk about how she defines success, and explore her path to breaking down the barriers that women too often face.

Today, we're talking with Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack. Authors of the new book, "What's Next: A Backstage Pass to The West Wing," its cast and crew, and its enduring legacy of service. Melissa is an actor, producer, and social justice advocate. As an actor, she's best known for her seven-year role as Carol on the award-winning television series, “The West Wing.”

While in Hollywood, Melissa co-founded Voices in Harmony, a mentoring program that uses theater to work with historically underserved teens. In 2013, she left Hollywood to champion justice system reform at All Rise, where she is at the forefront of engaging the public in the expansion of treatment courts and advancing justice system responses for individuals and communities.

Mary is an actor, producer, and activist who played Deputy National Security Advisor Kate Harper on “The West Wing,” a Tony nominated Broadway actor, Broadway actress, she's also known for diversity of roles across film, television, and theater, including her portrayal of Deputy U. S. Marshal Mary Shannon on the TV series "In Plain Sight," and her Tony nominated turn as Gretchen in "Boeing, Boeing."

Mary is an outspoken advocate for a whole host of causes from social justice and women's rights to veterans issues and criminal justice reform. Now, please welcome Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack.

Mary McCormack: Aw, thank you. What a nice group.

Passionistas: We always start our interviews by asking, what are you most passionate about?

Mary McCormack: Oh, I mean, the obvious answer is family. You know, I'm, uh, married and raising some girls, three of them. So I'm passionate about that. That feels like a project that I don't want to mess up. Um, and then I'm passionate about my work. I love to, um, to work and, and I would say to find work, you know, um, I love all acting, but when you get lucky enough to do something like “The West Wing,” it, it, it sort of elicits the most passion, right?

Because if you can do what you love to do and affect, you know, the world a little bit along the way, that is the ideal. That's the perfect storm of passion in your work. It doesn't always happen. So I feel very lucky when it does.

Melissa Fitzgerald: You know, I am definitely passionate about my family. I do not have children. I'm not married, but I have brothers and nephews and parents and godchildren and dogs. And I'm also, I'm very passionate about them. Mary knows that. And, and also about my family of friends, um, and, and definitely my work. I love getting to do the work that I do now. And Justice System Reform for Individuals with Substance Use Mental Health Disorders so that they receive treatment, recovery support instead of incarceration.

And that's been a passion and my life's work really for the past 10 years. Um, over 10 years, almost 11 years, I can't believe it. But, um, So that is definitely my, my passion.

Passionistas: So take us back, um, where do your, your collective passions for acting and for service come from? Were those things that you have always cared about, even when you were growing up?

Mary McCormack: Yeah, I think for me, I was always into acting, like I, I could sing when I was very little and that sort of leads you to plays. And I just realized, I just loved it right away. I loved the gang. I loved rehearsals. I loved staying up late with adults. Like I just love, I mean, I didn't do it professionally. I just did it sort of locally when I was young, but I loved it.

And I always, and I thought, you know, the way young people do, you think you can do anything. I was like, Oh, I'll just do that, you know. Um, and luckily I get to do that, which is incredible. I feel so lucky. And service, I think was part of our life growing up. I mean, I always, um, witnessed my parents. You know, having service as part of their life and, uh, it was just something that was sort of expected and just part of our lives.

So yeah, I never, it never sort of had to be taught. It was sort of, um, taught by example.

Melissa Fitzgerald: I mean, I would say the same exact thing. Um, my parents were very, um, They're, they set a very strong example of service and it wasn't just something that you added on. It was just part of the mix. Part of what you did, part of your day.

And, um, you know, my dad has been, well, he retired, but he was a judge for my whole adult life. And for him, he was so passionate about it and really passionate about helping people through the justice system. And I'm, I'm sure that impacted my, my turn that I took. But, um, But I also did love acting growing up.

I was very passionate about that. And like Mary, I was like, well, how hard could it be? I didn't know anybody who did it. I learned how hard it could be, but I loved it. And it was, it's interesting. Cause I left that out when you asked me what my passions were and I had the opportunity to do a play with Martin Sheen this fall at the Kennedy Center, we got to do this really lovely play called “Love Letters.”

And I'd forgotten, you know, I'd been so immersed in the work that I do now that I've really let go of that creative, I hope that you found that piece of me aside from our book and being able to do that again reminded me how important that is to me and to my life, whether I do it for a living or not, which I don't do it for a living.

Mary McCormack: It was so beautiful. I know I'm biased. I know I sound You are very biased. I am not. I'm completely subjective on this. It was, it was beautiful. Gorgeous. It was heartbreaking play, but then Melissa and Martin have this beautiful friendship and trust in each other. And it was just, I mean, it was, they did it in front of thousands of people at Melissa's conference and it was stunning.

I mean, there wasn't a dry eye in the house. It was gorgeous. Thank you, Mary. It's true. But I think service for me, also, like, I mean, Melissa knows this story. I told it at my mom's funeral recently.

Passionistas: Yeah.

Mary McCormack: Was, you know, I, like, I would just grow up and there was someone in our guest room. And I was like, who's that?

And she's like, oh, that's Bonnie. And, you know, with some questioning, I'd find out that it was a woman, you know, there was no room at the shelter. And so she was staying in our house until a bed opened up. And, but there was just sort of, you It was just sort of woven in. It wasn't a, it wasn't sort of talked about.

It was just done, you know, which helped, I think. It helped sort of set, set us on that path. There's military service in your family as well. Certainly in mine, I'm sure in Melissa's too, in most American families. Yeah. So I, I, I do, every year I do the Memorial Day concert in Washington because it's such a non, it's a lovely event and it's nonpartisan and it's just a way to sort of reach out to Gold Star families and service members and say, thank you.

Melissa Fitzgerald: It's a beautiful, beautiful event. And it's on PBS and it actually lives there. You can watch it anytime you want. Um, and I recommend it. And Mary is a real, um, I know that it's very meaningful to you and she does it every year and brings her children.

Mary McCormack: My dad was a Marine and very proud of it. And I have lots of service members in my family, but I, yeah, I think it's a nice opportunity for us all as a country. I mean, it's, you know, it's, you think cookouts and beer and stuff, but it's nice to take a minute to say thank you to everyone who's served.

Passionistas: Absolutely, absolutely. So, speaking of Martin Sheen, let's talk a little bit about "The West Wing". We love talking about him. So, how did "The West Wing" influence your choices on what things you wanted to be involved with service wise.

Mary McCormack: That's interesting question. Well, Melissa, certainly.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah, mine for sure. Um, well, I mean, I, I'd always been involved as Mary had been in service and I started a nonprofit before I ever got to “West Wing” and did it throughout working with historically underserved teens in Los Angeles on a mentoring theater program, and then took that to Uganda right after, um, Right after “West Wing” ended, like literally a couple weeks after I was on a plane, but the work that I'm doing now for the past 11 years at this national nonprofit called All Rise started when I lost a dear friend to addiction and Martin, uh, said to me, why don't you come to DC with me to a conference?

This fantastic organization that's, uh, championing treatment courts, treatment instead of incarceration for people who have substance use and mental health disorders who've gotten involved in the justice system. And I said, that sounds great. I talked to my dad about it. Turns out my dad had started one of these courts in Philadelphia.

He was one of the people that started. So it was sort of the perfect storm in a way. And, uh, I came to the, the conference with Martin and at that conference, I met thousands of people who are working in treatment courts, judges, prosecutors, defense counsel, treatment providers, law enforcement, all working To make sure that when someone is arrested and enters the justice system who does have a substance use and mental health disorder, if appropriate, that they get evidence based treatment, recovery support so that they can return to our communities.

Heal productive and, and living life's of lives of which they're proud. And to a person, and my dad says this too, that, you know, working in a treatment court has been the highlight of my career in criminal justice because people get better. Before, if they'd come back into my courtroom, it was because they'd been rearrested.

Now, when they come back into my courtroom, it's to invite me to a graduation or a wedding or to introduce me to their children or to tell me they got a new job. So, you know, who doesn't? You know, want to work in something where there's so much hope and hope in our justice system, hope in an actual courtroom.

Um, so Martin introduced me to that and my dad and, um, you know, I became a supporter. They had just launched their veterans division, which is part of, you know, All Rise is the umbrella. Justice for Vets lives under that umbrella and specific to veterans and Mary. Has been an ambassador since the very beginning and they had just launched that and I got involved in that.

And, um, you know, the story was the CEO at the time said, uh, you know, we're, we're looking for someone to head up our veterans division. And I said, gosh, if I were a veteran, I'd throw my hat in the ring. And a few days later he called back and he said, were you serious? And I said, yeah. And I was sitting in my apartment in the Hollywood Hills.

And he said, when can you start? And it was October. And I said, well, how about January? And he said, how about Monday? And I said, how about January? And he said, how about Monday? And I started Monday. I know you might not even know that story, Mary, but

Mary McCormack: I did a long time ago. Do I forgot that? How about,

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah, I got on a plane. I came to DC. I stayed like on couches and looked for an apartment and that was, that was it. That was almost 11 years ago. Um, and I, I've, it's been so gratifying and wonderful. And, and one of the great joys of it has been all the support that the West Wingers have given our work. And it's, and it has certainly elevated.

Um, my ability to do my job, to have all this support and Mary has been, of course, front and center as she always is. And so has Martin and Janelle and Allison and Richard and Dulé. Dulé was just on Celebrity Jeopardy for us and played for All Rise. So it's um, you know, Josh, Malin, everybody. It's been a real, um.

Mary McCormack: It's a good family. We really are. It's a, to answer your question that way too. It's like, we are. You know, I care about the stuff I care about sort of intrinsically. And then I care about, randomly, a dance organization in New Jersey that Dulé cares, because if Dulé cares about it, we all care about it. It's sort of like, we describe it as one of us sends up the bat signal and everyone's like, we're on this text chain.

We have a “West Wing” text chain. And, you know, I don't think a couple days go by before someone needs a video or post or, or show up at an event or whatever. So, yeah, we sit a ball. It's helped our friendship a lot too, I think. I think it's helped maintain it. You know, we're all close anyway, but, um, it's like, acts as like a glue, you know, because everyone's lives get so busy.

You have jobs and kids and travel and, you know, a whole bunch of stuff to juggle. And I think that's, you know, it's hard to sort of work in friendships like that, but I think the service has helped us stay even closer.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah. For sure. It has. And I found that in the rest of my life too. You know, I've found so many of the things that have kept my friendships together have been around volunteering or doing activities together.

Passionistas: Yeah. Cause they're more fun. Yeah. And they're your people. If they, you know, if that's what matters to you, then, yeah.

Mary McCormack: Yeah, that's right. They care just because.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah.

Mary McCormack: Yeah.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah. And they'll show up. And that's the other thing that this group does. This group shows up and not just in small ways, but in big ways. You know, Mary came down for our conference. Everybody else has come to our conference too. Martin, Mary, everybody. And um, and that's not an easy light lift.  It's a heavy lift.

Mary McCormack: Easy when you get to see you do that play.

Passionistas: So, I think that's part of what makes the book so amazing. Um, as pop culture enthusiasts and, and a lot of what Nancy and I do and have done over the years is, is in depth research, um, for the Television Academy. So we thought we knew a lot about “The “West Wing” and we've watched every episode more than once and love the show.

But this book is such an amazing view of what happened behind the scenes in a way that we had not experienced before, but also just this beautiful family of people like you were just talking about. So for anybody that's a “West Wing” fan that thinks they, I have read a lot or know everything about "The West Wing." This book is really special, um, and you're, the way you communicate with each other in the book is really beautiful. So what was the inspiration of writing the book together?

Melissa Fitzgerald: Well, first of all, I couldn't be I couldn't think of anyone I would rather write this with than Mary, so that, I want to start it off there.

But, um, I was approached, because I live in D. C., to buy, um, a friend, now a friend of Mary's too, Kevin Walling. And he had friends who were book agents, and they said, would you do a behind the scenes of “The West Wing”? And I thought, you know, that's not really my book to write. That's someone else's book to write.

And that's Aaron's book, or somebody else's book to write. And, um, and then I went, and I was thinking about it, and I thought, you know, maybe, If it is about the friendships and why we're together 20 years later and that service is the critical component and I was at, um, Mary and I were both at Alice and Jenny's birthday party over a piece of cake and we were talking about it and Mary's like, yes, service, let's do it. And, um, and, uh, you know,

Mary McCormack: Was it COVID or just pre COVID?

Melissa Fitzgerald: No, it was just before COVID. It was November before COVID. It was 2019. And it was November because it was Allison's birthday and we were having a piece of cake. And I remember, um, Michael, Mary's husband was standing behind you and he was like, It's a lot of work.

Mary McCormack: I don't, we had a drink or two we're, it feels like we'd had a drink or two and a piece of cake. 'cause it all sounded good. And then during Covid we pitched it, which was so much fun. 'cause we were like, we'd never pitched a book before and we did a big, you know, document and we were proud of it. And we, and we loved like, coming up with all the angles and we thought we stories and, and it was all fun and nothing else was happening.

And then we sold it, which was super exciting. And then the work began and we were like. What have we done? Oh my God, what have we done? The selling part was so exciting. We were like, cheers to us. We're killing it. And we had to write it. And we're like, turns out writing's really hard. Like, like hats off to all the writers.

I mean, I'm literally like in awe of all of you because holy cow. Holy cow.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And we did hundreds of interviews, which There were so many good things about doing that during COVID because we got to see our friends and talk about the show and talk about our friendships and service and, and that was great.

Then we went back over and culled through all those interviews and had to try and come up with a book. And it was interesting because, you know, as we both said, we wanted to start off by having it be this sort of friendship service, some behind the scenes. But as we did more and more interviews, more things came out that we thought, gosh, we've got to put that in.

Like, you know, there are a bunch of key episode chapters where we do deep dives into episodes, and where people are talking about a scene that they shot, and they were just so interesting. We thought we can't not put that time that Richard was talking about trying not to laugh, and how he had to run around the corner.

That's just so interesting. Yeah, we had a…

Mary McCormack: The thing that I think that made... one of the things that makes this book special, besides the service aspect, which we're really proud of, is the, well, that we had so much access, you know, that we're the inside, we're insiders, like we were there. So they talk to us in a different way and, and we have a different take on all of it because it's not sort of, it's not reporting, it's, It was actually our experience and I think that makes a really special book for, for our, we call hardcore fans, our wing nuts. So that's, yeah.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Hopefully it comes through

Mary McCormack: We've done our job.

Passionistas: Yeah. It comes through. You can feel, you can feel that people are comfortable talking to you and that there's love there and good. It really,

Melissa Fitzgerald: And so much love. Yeah. Yeah. And I don think it was really fun…

Mary McCormack: I don't think fan books are usually written from that perspective. So I think it's, um, that's a real, that's a real nice. It gives it a nice vibe, I think. I hope. Yeah.

Passionistas: Yeah. Because we're fans of the show. I love that you kept the episodes in because that was Oh, good. We went back and watched those specific episodes again and it was like

Melissa Fitzgerald: There's so many more and so many more stories.

But we cut so much out of it and it's not a short book. I mean, we ended up We set out to write something about half as long as the one we wrote and, um, and there's still so much more and we were joking that we want to write a part two. I don't know if we really do. I'm just saying this, but, um, I know, I know, because I'm at work, but otherwise, we, um, did, uh, you know, it's called “What's Next” and our second book could be called “What's Left.” It's so much left.

Mary McCormack: “And Now What's Next.”

Passionistas: And where did that title come from?

Mary McCormack: So, uh, go ahead, Melissa, you do it.

Passionistas: No, you go ahead if you want.

Mary McCormack: Well, there was, so in the pilot, it's one of, it's Martin, it's the president's tagline. He says it a lot throughout, throughout the series. And the way that came about, which is, this is actually so cool, I think, um, in the end of the pilot, Tommy Schlamme was like, there's something about it, the ending that wasn't quite true to the energy of the White House.

Like the energy of the White House when he visited and he talked to us extensively about this was that there was this constant flow. of work. As soon as something was done, someone was handing you a piece of paper and then you were signing it and handing it to someone else, that it was never finished.

Um, and so he said to Aaron, I would love, instead of sort of ending it like a play, I would love to sort of pull back on it and get the sense that it's continuing, that the work continues. And so could you let, could we just, with your permission, let's do that. And of course, He jokes and says Aaron had to write a line for it because he's the right, you know, he's a writer and loves words.

So he came up with the president saying, what's next? And that, and it was a love, it's lovely because it sort of says like it does, it never ends, right? Service never ends. There's always something else to do. You know, we hand the baton to the next person and we receive a baton from someone else and we keep going.

So in Aaron's brilliance, he took two words, And had this beautiful sort of, you know, uh, blessing for the work continuing, for the series, but also for the work continuing. And, um, and yeah, I just love it. It's a great tagline for the president and it's a great, it's a great tagline for all of us to sort of remember that, you know, you finish one project and there's more to do.

And so it seemed, um, appropriate for the book because of our angle. Yeah.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And we always, you know, Mary and I always say, what's next is our reader. And our reader is what's next. Um, and every, every one of us is what's next. Each one of us is what's next and what we plan to do with the time we have left while we are here.

That's what's next. Um, and you know, as we get a little bit older, as certainly as I do, I feel like that, that's less and less. So we've got to figure out what's next. Keep going.

Passionistas: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think part of the brilliance of Aaron Sorkin and John Wells is the fact that they created something that is so timeless.

Um, we have a friend who's an activist and she was, she basically has “West Wing” on a loop because it's the thing that keeps her. She's a wingnut and it keeps her optimistic. Um, and in relevance wise, I mean, We literally were watching the final episode of season one an hour before the assassination attempt. Oh God. So everything, and there's just so many things throughout the series that are happening.

Mary McCormack: It's depressing because you realize like, oh, we're, we haven't made any pro, like an essay about, you know, an episode about the environment, an episode about gun control, an episode about, and all these issues that.

We have not only not fixed, we haven't, we've sort of gone the opposite direction, right? Yeah. It's um, it's incredible.

Passionistas: Why do you think the wingnuts find such hope in the show?

Mary McCormack: I think it's a tonic. It's like nice to know. I think it's true. I think there are tons of people in Washington who are there for the right reason, who are there to do the most good for the for the most people, you know, and I think we lose sight of that because the loudmouths are loud and you know, the toxicity is louder than, you know, people just.

Plugging away, doing what's next. Um, and I think it's a tonic. I think it's nice to remember that. It's nice to believe that, um, that aspirational aspect of the show is really comforting and, and important to remember, to not lose hope.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah. I remember when I went to college, cause I, I grew up with a lot of people who worked for the government, including my dad and, um, as an ADA, Assistant District Attorney and a judge, but, I remember someone made a joke about lawyers and government workers, and I legitimately didn't get it, because they were The best, smartest, most committed people I knew.

And they could have been making so much more money doing anything else than what they chose to do. And I think there is something really, really inspiring about that. And I think “The West Wing” was hopeful. It was aspirational. It appealed to our best. And, you know, I live in Washington, DC now, and I meet a lot of these young people who are top of their class, who could be making a ton of money elsewhere and working.

It's far less hard, and they're really giving their youth to making our country better. And um, and I, I feel like watching “The West Wing” makes me feel that government can, should be a force for good in people's lives. And when people need government, it needs to be there for them to lift them up.

Passionistas: Absolutely. How do you think the show would differ if it were made in today's political climate?

Mary McCormack: I mean, it's hard to imagine, right? Because we've lost all middle ground, it seems like. It's so divisive. There's no gray area anymore. So maybe that's…

Melissa Fitzgerald: I think there are people who want that still, people who work in government who want that. I think there are those people and I feel like In, uh, I think it would have to be in Aaron's, you know, capable hands to create something from that. Um, I think it would be challenging, but I think it was challenging then too. We felt that those times were divisive too, and yet “The West Wing” grew out of that.

Mary McCormack: Yeah, but there used to be It is different. There used to be a two party system where it was about checks and balances, right? It was about, it was about two sides feeling really passionately and compromising and coming up with some, some, some point in the middle of the line that You know, that everyone agreed on and now it doesn't seem to be that, like, no one's voting for what's best.

They're voting just to hurt the other side as opposed to, you know, anyway, we could go on and on down that rabbit hole.

Passionistas: Yeah, absolutely. It is a rabbit hole. Um, so let's talk about your lovely cast mates again. Um, what's, can you each think of maybe one thing? that you learned about either someone in the cast or about the way the show was made that you didn't know before that really surprised you when you were writing the book?

Melissa Fitzgerald: I did learn quite a few things about Richard Schiff that, not necessarily that I didn't know, but I got a deeper dive into his, um, his, his background as an activist starting when he was young and also, you know, his, Connection to the Spalding, his personal connection. Um, I certainly learned more about a lot of things.

I learned more about Allison Janney's connection, you know, her family connection from like her great, great, you know, uh, aunt and grandmother being involved in Planned Parenthood from the early days. I did know that her mother was very involved in Planned Parenthood because they knew her mom. Um, great woman.

And, um, But I didn't know the sort of the family history there. Um, Brad, I mean, I knew the, I knew family history there and his connection. Did you know

Mary McCormack: Brad's whole story of, uh, auditioning and that whole thing? I didn't know it that in depth.

Melissa Fitzgerald: I don't think I knew it that in depth, but I did know it. I did know it. Um, but not that in depth. You're right. Can you tell

Passionistas: a little bit of that with, to tease it, tease the book? Go ahead, Melissa, you do that one.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Well, he, he, uh, He was told by his agent after auditioning, it's not going to happen. It's just absolutely, like there's a long story and I don't want to give it away because it's so good in the book and we tell it so well.

And I, uh, encourage everybody to get the book to read this story. But I think what's really funny is like the agent saying, and it was on a note too, somewhere saying like, Not gonna happen. He's not gonna get cast in this. Like, give it up. And he did not give it up. And it was either not sexy or not funny enough.

Yeah. Not sexy, not funny. Um, so, and, uh, here we are all those years later, sexy, funny, and playing the role.

Mary McCormack: Yeah, but he sort of forced the issue. There's a, yeah…

Melissa Fitzgerald: He totally forced the issue. And he knew that that was the part he wanted. And then he was up for a different part. Um, they told him he was going to do a different part and he knew that that was not the right part for him. Um, that he was definitely a Josh, not a Sam. We learned a lot about…

Mary McCormack: Yeah, I think one really fun discovery mode for us was when we went into the cast, all the casting, like we were lucky enough to get to. Oh yeah. John Levy, who is the casting director of the, I mean, he's directed so many great things that everyone knows, but he did do “The West Wing” years and years ago, and he gave us access to his binders, which are like, I think three or four huge binders of lists.

I mean, gold. Feedback and deals and just all the potential, like casting, brainstorming lists. And so there was a whole list of which we put in the book of different presidents that they were thinking about. And that's fun. We found, unfortunately for me, because I'm an idiot, we found an early brainstorming thing for the role of Mandy and it said Mary McCormack not interested in series television. But you know what?

Melissa Fitzgerald: It all worked out. It all worked out.

Mary McCormack: However. So that was fun. That was a deep dive into some real “West Wing” trivia. We were lucky.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And like that someone was cast for one day as the president. And we're not going to say who, because again, Oh, we say it in the book. Yeah. I know. That's what I'm saying. No, I wanted to make sure. I wanted to make sure. Oh no, we dished it out. We dished it out. We dished it out in

Passionistas: the book. One of the things I love about the book is that you also talk to people behind the scenes, as well as the cast. And it seems like that was really important on set as well, that you were all a big family. Talk a little bit about that.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah, 100%. And we feel like, you know, there was an army of people who created the show, and we wanted to make sure that as many of them as we could. There's so many that we couldn't interview just because the book is already, you know, almost 600 pages. But the ones that we could, we felt that was really important to include them because this was a family.

We are a family. And, um, you can't write a book about “The West Wing” family and not include You know, the cousins or the siblings.

Mary McCormack: Yeah. And that family thing, I mean, you know, Melissa, it was one of the reasons we decided to write the book too, is that, or the way we decided to write it to, to incorporate the crew as well, because Martin sort of, and John and everyone, John Wells and Aaron, everyone set that tone right from the beginning that the cast is no more important than the crew.

The principal actors are no more important than the background actors. Um, and that sort of was the way the show was run. It's, uh, to John Wells credit, it is the way he runs all his shows. And, um, and is proud of it and should be, you know, because it's, everyone loves to work on his shows because of it.

It's just a really respected place to be. And if you're going to spend 16 hours somewhere, it's nice to sort of, You know, be treated that way. And it sounds like Martin Sheen really sets that tone. 100%. Melissa has a great story in the book, which I think we can share. Sure. Go ahead, Melissa. Take it away.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah. Well, um, And you might want to start with your little phrase that you always say, Mary, about as

Mary McCormack: number one goes. So there's an expression in television and it is as number one goes, so goes the show. Number one, referring to number one on the call sheet, number one, the principal actor. And it is true that almost always, if the number one is sort of a jerk, the show is a little bit broken throughout because the other actors, the younger actors learn from that.

They sort of go, Oh, well, if they're going to, Oh, we can all do that. Okay. We all do that. Whereas if number one is. Sets the tone as sort of, you know, professionalism and kindness. The other actors generally follow, and the crew.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And Martin certainly did that for us. And, and I know, you know, John Spencer too. And they, they, and they talked about it. They took their role as sort of the elder statesman on this show very seriously. And, um, you know, one of my first days of, well, I think it was my very first day of work, um, after the pilot, um, when the show got picked up, I remember You know, there was a scene with a lot of background out, um, artists in the scene and Martin and I think I had, you know, one line or half a line and I was standing there and Martin comes and we're ready to go and the producers are there and the director and Martin starts introducing himself to each and every background artist that was there.

Handshake, look in the eye, Martin Sheen, pleasure to meet you. You know, happy to have you with us. What's your name? Where are you from? And really, you know, and I remember, of course, watching that, watching the producers, looking back and forth, and I thought, what's he doing? Ah, he's teaching all of us. How this is going to go down from here on out, that people are going to be more important than anything else, that we are going to treat each other with dignity.

We are going to treat each other with kindness and that people are the most important. And, you know, certainly there's nobody more professional than Martin and who's more on time and more on top of everything himself and set that tone as well. But he also set a tone for kindness. And, um, you know, I, I, I think that matters.

And I know Dulé, when he, he was young when he started and he told us in one of his interviews when he went on to be number one on Psych, he said, I went to that show “Psych” and he said, it's my turn now to do what Martin did for us.

Passionistas: I love, I love how you talk about Dulé tap dancing behind the backstage. He's amazing.

Melissa Fitzgerald: He is amazing. Phenomenal. Yeah, that was… Yeah, I mean, how many opportunities like that do you have in life to go to work and have one of the greatest tap dancers alive to start tap dancing?

Mary McCormack: Dancing with Yo-Yo Ma.

Passionistas: Okay.

Mary McCormack: Yeah, right. All righty.

Passionistas: Typical day at the office.

Mary McCormack: Yeah, James Taylor's playing later in the week. What?

Melissa Fitzgerald: What? When we did the reunion, uh, “Hartsfield's Landing,” the reunion for “When We All Vote” a few years ago, um, four years to be exact, um, when Dulé started tap dancing just on the actual stage. I just was like, oh gosh, I really miss this. Really, really miss this.

Passionistas: So we talked about, um, All Rise and Justice for Vets, but we haven't talked about Voices in Harmony yet. So tell us a little bit about that.

Melissa Fitzgerald: So, Voices in Harmony was, which it lives in a certain way, but not as an organization right now. But we worked with at risk teens, like, you know, historically underserved teens in Los Angeles, um, and who weren't getting arts education in their schools.

And we started a mentoring theater program. So, we use theater as a way to mentor. And so we had professional actors, writers, and directors all volunteer. And we would, over the course of a six month program on Saturday afternoons, we would work and do workshops together. And at the end of that period of time, We each teenager had a mentor who was a professional actor.

They would work with a professional writer to write a short play based on a societal issue of our choosing together. And then a director would direct it like a 10 minute or less play. And then we would fully produce these evenings of theater. Um, at pretty major theaters like the Cannon Theater, the, you know, big theaters in Los Angeles.

And, um, we had so much support from “The West Wing” family, but also from Warner Bros. And, and I had been doing it for many years before that, and it was very grassroots. And then we developed a classroom based program that we then, uh, gave to Los Angeles Unified School District many years ago. And, um, and then we took a version of that I brought a theater program to northern Uganda and worked with former abducted child soldiers and sex slaves there, um, and other teens who had been displaced by the war.

And I brought a group of actors and a director and writer, and we worked together, um, creating these, these programs. Three short plays on the issues they wanted to tackle. And they had been brutalized by Joseph Kony and the rebel war there. And the topics that they wanted to tackle were peace building and reconciliation and HIV AIDS, like attack the myths because so many people were dying of AIDS because of misinformation.

And, um, And that was a really transformative experience. I think I mentioned happened right after “West Wing” ended. And I spent quite a few years working on, on that, using that to, um, create a program where, you know, activism around the issue. And, um, at one point, which may be pertinent to this particular podcast, uh, GE made a surprise announcement at the International Rescue Committee, one of our partners, at their annual honoree dinner that they would, Donate a million dollars to educate girls in northern Uganda.

Passionistas: Unbelievable work. Um, and Mary, we also wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a bit about Moms Demand Action.

Mary McCormack: Moms Demand is, I've been involved with for a long time because how do you not, it just doesn't seem to be, I mean, they are doing incredible work. Thank the Lord. And it's weird because, you know, when you look at sensible gun laws and Americans and how they feel about them, I forget what the percent, it's like 80%, 90%.

I mean, it's, Americans are for them. So, it really is about, you know, uh, dirty money and NRA and a whole bunch of other stuff that like is incredible that that still is happening and that our kids and all of us are still at risk. That we can't, you know, go to a movie theater, go to the mall without, my kids literally, we all say goodbye differently now, like when we leave the house, which is so messed up.

Like they should just be able to say goodbye, Bye mom! They should be able to yell it, but don't. You know, because they're afraid. So it's so sick. It's just so sick. So, uh, Moms Demands a Lab for me and, um, Melissa and I, when we were looking at the book, because there's so many things we care about, we were sort of trying to carefully choose so that we felt like we were representing, you know, a bunch of, we didn't want to miss anything, you know, so, um, Trevor brought us in.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And we did, but…

Mary McCormack: And we did. Oh my God, we did. Of course we did. There's so many things. It was impossible. And also we wanted to honor the passion projects. of our cast, you know, so we were, um, we, we, we started there and then also I wanted to talk about the Trevor Project because, um, they're also doing incredible work for LGBTQ community and youth at risk in crisis and there's such a mental health crisis in our country anyway for youth right now, but if you add on top of that the homophobia and the It's a horrific, um, policy that is happening, um, and in danger of happening.

It just can feel hopeless for, uh, LGBTQ youth. So, um, I think, I don't know when my cousin, my cousin, Carl Nassif, who was, uh, the first NFL player to come out and did so publicly on Instagram, which was so moving and important, um, I think it was during our writing, Melissa, or I, it was, yeah, it was during our writing.

Yeah, we just thought instantly we have to include that because I'm proud of Carl, but also I thought how many lives did he just save because he is an NFL player, you know, because he is, um, he said, and he said that great sentence when he came out, he said, I shouldn't have to do this. Hope for one day when this is private, or one day this is unnecessary, as it should be.

Who should have to talk about sexuality to anyone, ever, much less a mom. But, but, but how brave of him to do that, knowing how many lives he might save.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And he's very active raising money for the Trevor Project also, so. A hundred percent, yeah. And I just wanted to give a shout out to, when I had said, you know, Voices in Harmony, our partners were International Rescue Committee and International Medical Corps.

And International Medical Corps turns out is Janelle's, one of her, her, um, service organizations that she cares about. But they're doing incredible work all over the world in hot zones and really having, Watched what they do firsthand. Um, I was so impressed.

Passionistas: One of the things we hear from people a lot, women in our community and people all over, um, is there's so much to tackle.

There's so many things people want to fight for. How Do you have advice for someone who wants to get involved, doesn't know where to start? How do you get involved with one of your organizations or something else?

Melissa Fitzgerald: Well, in our organization, you can read our book because we have websites in the book and definitions like the sort of mission statements of the different organizations.

And that was really important to us. And thank you to our publisher, Dutton, for allowing us to do that because it added a lot of pages. Please go to our book. That's a great place to start. Google's another great place to start. A lot of people who probably listen to your podcast and people who are wingnuts, they are already doing things in their communities and internationally, but I'll just speak for myself.

I don't pretend to have major advice for anybody, but for myself, it just starts from what moves me personally at that moment. And it's different things at different times and find a way if I am useful, is there something that I can contribute to this cause? Um. And if not, is there somebody that I know that maybe can contribute to this cause?

Mary McCormack: Yeah. Yeah. It can be overwhelming. I know what you mean. The world can seem, you know, when you start to think about it, you take it all in. It can feel like, well, then why do anything? You know, and that's, uh, that is debilitating. So I don't know. Just start. Start somewhere. Yeah. Just little things. I think that's the thing.

We've been so lucky. Um, and continue to be so lucky, actors are lucky, sport athletes are lucky, famous people are lucky because they can, um, they get asked to do things and can affect big change with very little effort and that's fun and fortunate, um, but God, we need everyone just doing tiny things too, you know, just school board things like we need, we need, you know, just soup kitchen.

Melissa Fitzgerald: I know. Yeah. Those are huge

Mary McCormack: things. We need all the things and little things too. And so, yeah, if it's one, if it's just helping a neighbor, it doesn't have to be sweeping things, you know, Lord knows. And there

Melissa Fitzgerald: are websites, there are, you know, lots of places to look and, and schools. I mean, even if you go to, Starbucks, I know, has a board.

Sometimes they have volunteer opportunities on the boards. But, um, I remember when I was doing some work on advocacy around ending the war in northern Uganda, I was at a university and someone said, well, you know, we have a lot of problems here at home. Why aren't you working on our problems here at home?

You should be doing that. And I found that to be very interesting. And I said, well, like, give me an example of what you think is a problem that you think I should be working on. And she said, well, veterans need help in our country. And I said, you are a hundred percent right. And are you doing anything? And she said, me?

No. And I said, well, that seems like that's your passion. Like you're passionate about it. I bet you could contribute a lot to that. This is what I happen to be passionate about right now. And I'm working on this right now. Turns out I ended up working on behalf of veterans later, but I'm like right now, this is what I'm working on.

You have a tremendous amount to contribute yourself. I say that's your passion, go for it. And she did. Um, so it's just, it is interesting sometimes how we think that there are people who are supposed to be doing something and, but, but it's all of us. It's each and every one of us has something to contribute.

Mary McCormack: One time I was feeling overwhelmed and I asked my dad about it and I was like, oh, and I was listing all the things in my life that weren't working and I was like, and this and this and this and I have to do this. And I was like, sort of in a tizzy. And, and I said, my windshield's dirty and I can't even see it out of the windshield.

And he went, just clean the windshield. Just clean the windshield. Sometimes when I feel overwhelmed, I think I'm just going to clean the windshield so I can see the other problems. Like just do one little thing and then things become easier, you know. It's a little. Yeah.

Melissa Fitzgerald: What's that book, “Bird by Bird?”

Mary McCormack: I don't know it.

Melissa Fitzgerald: Yeah. Oh, I'm going to give it to you. Janelle gave it to me years ago. It's really good.

Passionistas: And I think it's also what you were saying earlier that You, um, you help each other and support their passions and their work. And I think that's a place for people to start as well. Like, if you don't know, like, what, what are your friends worried about? It's more fun anyway.

Mary McCormack: It's more fun to have a community. If you can combine community and service, it's way more fun.

Melissa Fitzgerald: So much more fun.

Mary McCormack: Yeah. So I think you're right. That's a great place to start. Be like, Hey, let's do, let's go. Do a shift at a thing together because, you know, this makes it…

Melissa Fitzgerald: No, it's funny that you just brought that up. It reminded me when I, I was, um, living with my friend Anne at the time when we started Voices in Harmony, we'd have all our meetings in our living room at night and she would sometimes make brownies and come down and volunteer cookies. She makes very good chocolate chip cookies, but, um, and I would be like, oh, thank you so much.

Thanks for letting us have another meeting here, you know, tonight. And, and she goes, don't thank me. Are you kidding? You just gave me an opportunity to be of service and I didn't have to leave my house. She's like, you're giving opportunities.

Passionistas: So I want to stress again to people listening that this book is not just for “West Wing” fans because it is So much more than just a backstage look at “The West Wing.” So what do you both hope that people take away from the book when they read it?

Mary McCormack: I don't know. I mean, I hope people, I hope the fans do. I hope we get a stamp of approval from our fans because the wingnuts mean business. And we do, I think we deliver on that, like, because we had such crazy access, but. I think you're right and I hope other people, um, respond to it too for sort of its general discussion of connectedness.

I hope that we have a good discussion about that because, and then a sort of, um, a sort of push to remember how service should be and is so fulfilling, what can be such a fulfilling part of all our lives, you know, um, and it doesn't have to be big, huge things. It can be, go to the website for Mom's Demand and see how easy it is.

Do something. It's so easy to do little things. Tiny things. I mean, send an email. It matters to them. And they will tell you, they will tell you big things you can do and, and a huge scale of, of, uh, tinier things you can do. Um, and you can make a real difference. So I hope we, I hope we, uh, inspire some of that, you know.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And I hope that, same as Mary, I hope that people enjoy the ride of reading the book and get to visit, revisit some of, you know, something they loved for the people who loved it. And, um, yeah. Be introduced to something for the people who, who don't know it as well. And then, you know, I, I imagine that a lot of the people reading the book are already doing things in their communities.

Um, and I hope that maybe they'll be introduced to some more organizations and learn a yeah. Bit about some of the, they haven't.

Mary McCormack: And it's fun too if you love Allison Janney to hear about why she's passionate about the things she's passionate about and how she's involved and how you might get involved too. And so that's a, it's sort of fun to have that insight.

Passionistas: Everybody, please go out and get the book. It's amazing. You will not be sorry.

Mary McCormack: Great Christmas gift, holiday gift. It is.

Passionistas: That's a good holiday gift.

Mary McCormack: That is a back to school gift. It's back to school.

Passionistas: St. Patrick's Day, whatever day it is.

Melissa Fitzgerald: National ice cream day was. You know, last week you should have bought a book for that. Because you can pre order it.

Passionistas: Right, so people can pre-order it right now. Is that true?

Mary McCormack: Yeah, that's true. And we're doing a couple live events too.

Melissa Fitzgerald: It's gonna be really fun.

Mary McCormack: And a bunch of signed books.

Melissa Fitzgerald: There's opportunities to get signed books.

Mary McCormack: And yeah, we're, we're signing books.

Passionistas: Where can they go to order?

Melissa Fitzgerald: I mean they can follow us on social media for sure because we are posting away. So we're posting so if you follow us, um, Mary your handle.

Mary McCormack: Oh, I'm @MaryCMcCormack.

Melissa Fitzgerald: And I'm at @Maffy Fitz, um, at Instagram also.

Passionistas: Excellent. Well, we have one last two part question. Uh oh. That's a doozy. What's your dream for yourself and what's your dream for women or, Mary, maybe your daughters?

Mary McCormack: My dream for myself? I would like a little more sleep. Um, no, I don't know. Um, my dream for myself is, yeah, to continue to find fulfilling work that I'm passionate about. I mean, I think, you know, and to keep my family safe. And, you know, I would love more time with my family. My kids are leaving the, you know, leaving the nest.

For women and my daughters and all of our daughters, our, our collective daughters is to, um, Is to, is to not, like my cousin Carl said, that it shouldn't be a discussion really. Like I don't, hopefully one day we won't say she's a strong woman who's accomplished A, B, and C.

We'll say there's a strong person who's accomplished that whole pile of stuff. You know, I mean that would be an ideal thing. Like I, sometimes I work with young actresses and they, you know, They are already, I can feel it changing, you know, their, their ownership in the world, their voice in the world is different than even my, I start every email still at 55 and I'm a person who cares about this.

I still rewrite, I try to rewrite all my emails and take out the eight apologies, you know, uh, for things I haven't done. And I hope for my daughters that they don't have that rattling around in them by the time that, you know, they get to the writing, demanding email stage. More voice, more voice and less emphasis on gender or body parts or any of it.

It's, it should be unimportant and hopefully it's not right now. Lord knows, let's all rally around our presidential hopeful. Um, and because we have a lot of work to do, we have a lot of work to do. Lord knows, we have a lot of work to do, especially when you look at some of the things the other side is saying and doing.

Um, uh, but one day I hope that it is irrelevant. All the physical is irrelevant.

Melissa Fitzgerald: That is. I agree with that, 100 percent Mary. Um, I guess my dream for myself, that's a really good question. Um, this is similar to Mary's in that, you know, my, I get to show up for my family and take the best care of them I can.

Um, and be a great friend to my friends. Um, be a great aunt and godmother. Um. And that, you know, when I leave the world, that it's a slightly better place cause I was here. Um, that would be my big dream. Um, and then for the world, I think that we have everything we need to solve all the world's problems. If we all participate and care enough to actually do it.

And I, I believe we can. And that would be my dream to see that, see that realized. And that's, I guess, for daughters and sons.

Passionistas: Thanks for watching The Passionistas Project and our interview with Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack. Follow them on Instagram @MaryCMcCormack and @MaffyFitz to find out how to get your own copy of "What's Next: A Backstage Pass to The West Wing" or pre order your copy on Amazon.

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