Bra-Free Revolution: Katie Charrier's Journey to Comfortable Confidence
Katie Charrier is a Pivoting Passionista. After seven years in practice as an eye doctor, she found an entrepreneurial calling that she could not ignore. Inspired by her eternal desire to be comfortable, she invented a new way to construct loungewear and clothing that helps women relax comfortably, bra less, while maintaining a desired coverage. She creates this at her growing brand, Jia+Kate. Along the way, she is working through the mindset shifts involved with an epic midlife pivot, including career and personal identity, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and finding balance between goal setting and contentment in the present moment. So please welcome Katie Charrier.
Listen to the full episode here.
LINKS
ON THIS EPISODE
[00:01:29] Katie Charrier on what she’s most passionate about
[00:02:56] Katie Charrier on creating the first bra-less product for Jia+Kate
[00:04:18] Katie Charrier on what inspired her first bra-less product
[00:08:13] Katie Charrier on studying neuroscience and becoming an eye doctor
[00:11:25] Katie Charrier on her entrepreneurial spirit
[00:13:25] Katie Charrier on how she learned how to start a business
[00:14:52] Katie Charrier on working in optometry part-time
[00:16:52] Katie Charrier on the process of finding a manufacturer
[00:19:34] Katie Charrier on the challenges of educating consumers about a new product
[00:22:12] Katie Charrier on her design process
[00:25:08] Katie Charrier on the sizes she carries
[00:26:59] Katie Charrier on her biggest sellers
[00:28:10] Katie Charrier on her future plans for Jia+Kate
[00:29:40] Katie Charrier on Jia+Kate’s dresses
[00:37:21] Katie Charrier on her biggest challenge in building Jia+Kate
[00:39:03] Katie Charrier on Sarah Blakely
[00:40:06] Katie Charrier on a tool that makes her daily life easier
[00:41:26] Katie Charrier on the biggest lessons she’s learned on her journey
[00:43:14] Katie Charrier on advice she’d give herself when she was starting out
[00:46:42] Katie Charrier on her definition of success
[00:48:56] Katie Charrier on how people can buy Jia+Kate products
[00:49:46] Katie Charrier on her dream for herself and her dream for women
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Passionistas: Hi, we're sisters Amy and Nancy Harrington, the founders of The Passionistas Project. We're created an exclusive sisterhood where passion driven women come to get support, find their purpose, and feel empowered to transform their lives and change the world. On every episode, we discuss the unique ways in which each woman is following her passions, talk about how she defines success, and explore her path to breaking down the barriers that women too often face.
Today, we're talking with Katie Charrier, a Pivoting Passionista. After seven years in practice as an eye doctor, she found an entrepreneurial calling that she could not ignore. Inspired by her eternal desire to be comfortable, she invented a new way to construct loungewear and clothing that helps women relax comfortably, bra less, while maintaining a desired coverage.
She creates this at her growing brand, Jia+Kate. Along the way, she is working through the mindset shifts involved with an epic midlife pivot, including career and personal identity, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and finding balance between goal setting and contentment in the present moment. So please welcome Katie Charrier.
We're so happy to have you here and I think the thing we relate to most about you is the constant desire for comfort.
Katie: Yes, that's definitely me.
Passionistas: So tell us what you're most passionate about.
Katie: So right now at the stage where I am in life, it'll sound kind of So, um, I don't know if that's general, but I feel like what best defines what I'm most passionate about right now is just authenticity.
So, and I apply that in a lot of ways. Of course, the career pivot that we're, you know, talking about here, just doing something that I feel authentically excited about every day. And the product itself, making a product that I feel authentically happy about putting into the world, where the product itself helps people feel authentic.
But also, you know, a lot of just other areas of life right now, similar to what you guys are creating, I feel ready at this stage to connect more authentically with friendships, with people who, you know, align with where I'm going in life as well, and just having a lot of authenticity in everything that I do.
Do right now. So it's, it's scary, you know, the pivoting Passionista part of it is a little bit scary, but if you're doing something authentic, that kind of keeps you going. So general as that is, I'm passionate about authenticity right now.
Passionistas: Well, we can totally relate to the scary part and know that the Passionistas have your back. You're part of the sisterhood now, so.
Kate: I love it. Thank you so much.
Passionistas: We are here for you. Um, so tell us about the product. Tell us what, what you are selling.
Katie: Yes, so I have a company called Jia+Kate, and what I make, I design it all right now, although I'm now currently having some manufacturers make it for me, so I'm not making them in house, but I design loungewear and apparel, daywear, you can wear it out, but it's comfort clothing for women, um, where it has a pad inserts, but no elastic or wires.
So it's a bra less or a bra alternative clothing choice, um, for women who Don't want to be wearing a bra. And I originally designed it for loungewear purposes, like to wear in my own home, and we can get to why I started doing that in my home, but, um, I've realized that a lot of women actually find this useful if they have had.
Surgeries, you know, breast cancer surgeries, if they've had thoracics or heart surgeries, gastric, people who can't reach around to hook a bra. So there are actually a lot of instances where people will wear this as their normal clothing, but it started as loungewear, you know, now it's just more than that.
Passionistas: I've had both of those gastric operations and trouble going back, so I can relate. Um, so, so tell us what inspired originally the spark of the idea for the loungewear.
Katie: Yes, so when I started seeing my husband, he was a single father of three, which is a lot of kids to get all at once, so that's a whole different story, but um, at the time, you know, two older boys and the youngest is a daughter, but the two boys were, you know, Like 8, 9, 10 ish range.
They're like 18 months apart. So they were in that tween stage. And when I started coming over and being more part of the family, you know, you might stay over, but this was peak pandemic era. So it was early 2020 when we started seeing each other and I was still seeing patients full time and of course my husband as well.
And then at the beginning of pandemic, we didn't have. Vaccines wasn't available even for healthcare providers and um, a lot of people were still dying at high rates from COVID and so we, you kind of have a routine where you don't come home in your scrubs and, you know, sit on the couch and hang out and eat first and then change later.
We would go in and you go right to the washer, strip everything off, you know, and put it on hot, go into your shower, do a hot shower. And then you, you know, sit down and sit on the furniture and have dinner. And so if I was coming over here, you know, shuffle in, put my scrubs in the wash, and then there are like, Tween boys here, you know, if I'm having dinner with the boys, after you get relaxed, you have your hot shower, you've had your long clinic day, you put on your lotion, your skincare routine, and then it's like, what am I going to put on to have dinner with the family or to relax and watch a movie?
Like, do I really have to put on a bra, you know, just like on when I'm relaxing and I've just done my skincare routine? Like, no, I don't want to do that. But also I don't want to show everything to these tween unsuspecting boys and just kind of like wanting that little boundary between us, um, where I want to wear a soft jammy shirt but also don't want to show everything to everybody who's here.
So that's where I just started really spinning my wheels. I did a lot of internet shopping but you've probably seen the built in bra camis on the market. They have the elastic. They're just not as comfortable, you know, it's still not as comfortable, and then it didn't have the pads anyway, so you still sort of have to wear something over it, and I just kept buying options that weren't quite what I wanted, and so I ended up sewing what I wanted, or cutting the elastic out of those, and taking like sports bra pads, you know, or swimsuit, just foam pads, and tacking them, and I'm like, you know, it would kind of be like this, where it just sort of drapes over, But doesn't have to hold anything up.
I just want to sort of block the headlights. And so I ended up making them in a very crude You know, amateur sewing kind of a way, and realized that, okay, people need to have this, and I have friends who wanted it. Um, my sister's in a dorm with co ed dining hall, and it's like, oh, I would wear this, you know, and a colleague of mine's like, my in laws live with me, you know, her husband's father is like there while she's making her coffee, and she's just like, you know, you do that awkward, like, cross arm thing.
Um, so that's what really led to the product. I mean, I had done everything from awkward zip up puffer vest to bathrobe to pashmina, you know, draped. And I'm just like, okay, there has to be a more elegant solution to this.
Passionistas: Wow, wow. And you have designed elegant tops. We can kind of talk about the, um, designs later because they're beautiful, but I want to take a step back, which is the coming home and the scrubs part, because you didn't start out on a career path to be a designer.
So tell us a little bit about your childhood and what your interests were growing up and how that led you to, Choose your original career.
Katie: Yeah, very different actually. So, um, weirdly enough, I always loved the brain and neuroscience. So, um, I grew up in Phoenix and I was always academically inclined. I always wanted to do well in school.
You know, I was the straight A kid. Um, and STEM was interesting, but I, I always thought that the brain was cool and how Similar, we all are, but very, very different, you know, and we share like 99. 98 or something percent of our genetics with like greater apes, but like, we're very, very different from them and how people's brains, you know, how consciousness is an emergent property of the physical brain.
And so I always knew I wanted to study neuroscience. Um, So that's what I did originally. Um, I got a scholarship to Vanderbilt to study neuroscience. I got a neuroscience degree and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with it and took so many really interesting classes and really cool things.
Um, but I sort of, you know, Maybe unnecessarily so, but gave myself the reality check. The, the problems that I wanted to solve of like, what makes us human? And you know, all this really crazy stuff. Um, I was like, well, how, you know, am I really going to solve this? And more practically, how can I use what I've learned?
Do I want to be a researcher full time? Do I want to do surgeries? Um, do I want to just be in clinic with people not doing surgery? And I, Shadowed a lot and I sort of ended up choosing optometry because actually the retina is brain tissue and there's a lot of, most of what we see is with your brain. I mean, the eyeball itself really just catches light, you know, the other 10 neurons in the pathway are all brain stuff.
And so I sort of ended up in visual system from a love of neuroscience. And I kind of thought, well, optometry is great because maybe I can solve people's problems quickly. In an office visit where they're not about to die, you know, they're not in severe pain. It has like less morbidity, mortality with it.
Um, then, and I don't like spending time in hospitals. I mean, bless the people who, who do that full time because people go there to have their worst day. Um, but hospitals are just kind of rough places to be. And so I ended up choosing optometry just kind of by thinking that I would like to. You know, bopping around and seeing patients and helping restore their sight, and it is fun!
Um, there are of course stressful parts to it and pros and cons and a lot of flexibility with optometry, so you can see all kids, you can see no kids, you can see, um, a wide, you can do a really wide range of things with that. Um, so yeah, that's how I ended up in Houston, was going to optometry school here.
And then ended up just in eye care in general.
Passionistas: And so did you ever have an entrepreneurial spirit? Was there always something in you that wanted to do your own thing? Or is it just really the. Inspiration from being at your boyfriend's house. Right?
Katie: Probably deep down. I think I was always, um, making stuff, like, slightly different than what it was.
And so the idea of taking a top or a built in shelf cami and being like, well, if I just cut it and add these pads, then it would be perfect. I've always done that. Kind of work around stuff like that. You know, my room at home was like, oh, I took part of this table and broke off the legs and attached it to the wall.
And like, I was always doing slightly weird makeshift things. And so that part kind of tracks. Um, I'm not sure that I pictured being a business person, you know, a business owner, um, because that path just really wasn't for me. modeled for me. My parents were lawyers and so it was kind of like, oh, you work and then, you know, you work during the week and then on the weekends you can not work, rather than being an owner, having that flexibility that I really hadn't seen until much later.
And I think the pandemic in some ways did that for all of us when Oh, things that used to be in person are now remote, or things that used to be done in a corporate setting now people can do from them, for themselves, and freelance market and e commerce became so much lower barrier to entry than it ever was.
And so I didn't really think of that as being, possible being like self employed or anything until much later. But as a kid, I was, I mean, I would go around the neighborhood like offering to knock on doors and clean up their leaves for a few dollars, but I don't know if that counts really.
Passionistas: I think it does. I think it shows some, you know, self motivation and I feel like that's a huge part of entrepreneurship. Um, so you, you're doing this for yourself and you're comfortable and now all your friends are starting to see it and go, Oh, I want that. How did you finally make the decision to make this a business and not having been an entrepreneur, how did you learn how to, How did you learn how to do that? How did you make that happen?
Katie: Um, still learning is the honest answer. So, um, I really decided once I made one and it worked, um, there was a local pattern maker here in Houston and she didn't end up being able to, like, scale and make patterns. Um, I didn't make them quickly or any like that. Um, but I had a top that I wanted to add the pads to.
And instead of doing it myself, I said, Hey, brought it. Can you make something like this and have the pads in and just have it be a drape? Because at first she told me, um, Well, no, without the elastic, it'll ride up, you know, it won't stay down. And there's a reason that nobody's made it like this. I was like, well, you know, try.
And when I put it on, I was like, okay, this kind of works. That's when I knew that, that I had something that other people would, would want. And that's when I started looking more seriously into, okay, could I scale something like this? Could I give it to other women? Could I do other designs? Um, and that was like, probably mid or late 2020.
Um, so yeah, when I, when I really tried one, one that was made, Well, by somebody who wasn't me, um, that's when I knew that, that it could, it could work. Um, yeah.
Passionistas: And so then how did you transition from starting this? What, like, what was the timing? When did you stop the optometry and start doing this full time or have you?
Katie: Well, kind of, and just recently, so I made an LLC in like early 2021, but I've Whether it's a mistake or a good idea, I decided to just do everything like myself, which just goes a lot more slowly, especially when you are working full time seeing patients. So I self funded and self taught, you know, building a website on Shopify and, you know, doing all the things myself just by Google University and, um, doing it that way.
So that was mid 2021. And then I actually had the website and I think I had enough of the tops to open up shop in, like, April of 2022, and then, so now here we are, that's about two years, and I just, here in April of 24, stopped seeing patients at the clinic where I was, um, but in part, I'm still part time in optometry, because my husband's still seeing patients full time at, so he always owned his own practice, And I worked for a cornea surgeon in town.
And so, but he needed help. He had an office manager suddenly leave and all things stressful there. And so it's like, well, I'm doing some admin stuff now, part time. So I still do some billing, um, some training of our new employees, just onboarded a new employee. So I find myself. Like getting dragged in or getting called in over there.
Um, even if he'll just say, Hey, you know, I saw this patient and it's a this, this, and we'll kind of consult on it. Um, but I do end up doing a lot of paperwork over there still. So I'm still kind of part time in optometry, but that's helpful to him because at least he has somebody who. Knows what's going on rather than hiring a stranger.
Um, but part of me transitioning out of my other clinic job was to be able to focus more attention on the business. So I've only had a few months of, of not seeing my own patients.
Passionistas: What was the process like of finding a manufacturer?
Katie: Um, very difficult, like shooting in the dark, really. So the first place, um, she ended up kind of promising that she could deliver, you know, these dozens or a couple hundred of them and was like, oh yeah, it'll take eight weeks.
And I paid up front, uh, 40%, you know, maybe 40, 50%. And what was promised in eight weeks ended up taking, like, more than ten months. And so she would, like, finish a few, and then, Oh, you can come get them, and I would show up and be like, Oh, they're not ready yet. And so it was actually kind of a nightmare, um, for that first relationship.
So that ate up almost, like, the first year of slowly getting a few of them. And then I did a lot of outreach, like, Googling. There are places on the internet called, like, Makers Row or Thomasnet, I spent a lot of time, because I really wanted to manufacture in the U. S. at first, um, cold calling anybody who listed that they did cut and sew manufacturing, so CMT, cut, make, and trim, and I called places who did, like, hospital bedding, you know, patio furniture, mattresses, duffel bags, anybody who did sewing, and to say, oh, can you do Number one, can you do knitwear?
Because knit, things that have a stretch, is different than woven for the machinery that they need. Um, do you do knitwear? Do you do apparel? You know, are you willing to do women's? And most people said no, or didn't say anything at all. Um, I found one place A couple of options, and so I manufactured for a little, a few styles, um, out of a place in Georgia who had done some sportswear, and I found them, um, but the manufacturer I'm using right now was an inbound lead, um, because I, I was doing a bamboo fabric and still do, and this company, which is in China, was like, oh, we create bamboo pajamas, um, You know, do you want to be our client?
It was, I think they must've done a Google search of who's selling this and found that I am. Um, so that's what I'm using now. I'd still want to bring it closer to home. So still. Like ongoing cause, and you might even as any kind of manufacturer, not ever wanna put all of your eggs in one basket because.
Because say you're cruising along and then that factory, you know, stops working for you or. You know, it goes out of business, then you're kind of sunk. So it was a lot of testing and trying, but the one that is working now was an inbound lead, weirdly enough.
Passionistas: So tell us about the process of educating consumers to a brand new product. How are you, how are you marketing it? How are you spreading the word?
Katie: Yeah, it's not easy. And actually that's my next big. Ventured now is I do need to put myself out there more. Like I know if I were willing to go on TikTok and say, Hey, like, look, what's under my shirt, you know, then, then this would be faster.
So that's probably my next, um, you know, big, big hurdle. Um, because thus far many of my customers come from Google search themselves. But like organic search, so I need to, you know, do more to like pay to be up on the top of those keywords, but women who are like my former self are out there Googling. Top that you don't have to wear, you know, a bra with coverage pads, um, but it is, it is a little difficult to kind of show and tell why it's different, you know, how, why there's no elastic, how and why it still works.
I do a lot of in person markets, so seasonally there are a lot of, um, like holiday pop ups, so usually each season I'll do A big handful of those. I have like four or five lined up here. Um, the first one's next month because I guess holiday shopping starts in September. Um, but yeah, so just showing her I have a mannequin and I lift it up and I say, oh look I'm wearing it and here's the underlayer.
But, but it is kind of difficult to, that's been one of the harder parts is, I guess women's apparel is one of the most competitive niches anyway. Um, but also explaining why it's different and why it's not just the usual shelf cami, um, is definitely going to be more of a hurdle and continue to be until it becomes more of a ubiquitous product, I guess.
Passionistas: I love the, um, the diagram you have on your website that shows how it works. Oh, yeah. That was really helpful. Because, because we had the same reaction. Like we've had those. I used to wear those, um. I love the ones with the elastic y, built in bra all the time. And I hated them because they were tight and uncomfortable.
And also they gave you that uni boob look. What I love about your product is You know, you like you said, you have the flowy tops, but I was blown away when I saw that you have the um, the like, um, you know, you have like the, the ruched, you know, wrapped looking top and things like that. Um, so talk about that.
Katie: Like this, you mean?
Passionistas: Uh huh. Yes. I love that.
Katie: Yeah. This is the long sleeve one.
Passionistas: That's my favorite style of top. And I was like, oh my God, I could wear that. And not wear a bra? Tell us about your design process and how you went from that first flowy top to the designs you have now.
Katie: I still have some of the flowy designs as well. In fact, the fitted ones that I'm making next, that'll come out next month, um, feature the under layer really attached to the front part. Um, so it's basically just test and try. Um, on all the original designs, the under layer is, it's attached around the armholes and at the neck. But at the bottom, you know, if you lift up the bottom of the outer shirt, you can see it as a separate, kind of like how a shelf cami would be with the underlayer being separate, but just without elastic.
And it's tacked to the side of the shirt so that it stays down. Um, so really it's just a product of the customer saying, okay, flowy, but I really don't want to wear a bra. Um, I want to wear this all the time. I can wear. And like a cardigan over it or I want to layer it with something. Do you have something that's slimmer fitting that's less fabric, not as flowy, so that I can use it in layering or tuck it in to something.
So it was just having both, really. So I just started with, The flowier ones, because it's like loungewear and you're relaxing, you know, you don't need, I don't have any immediate plans to make like a crop top or anything, even as trending as those are. I'm like, I'm at my house. I'm not, you know, having to, the whole point is that I'm relaxing.
So I did start with those flowier designs, but as we're wearing them out of the house now, and I could wear this anywhere, I started trying to make it look more like A blouse that you would wear outside of the home and trying to factor in the under layer just so that it's most comfortable and most functional so the pads stay in place as well as they can while still having room where ladies who are a little more higher, lower, in or out can still adjust the pads because people say, oh, I hate how the pads fold up when you wash clothing.
Can you tack them in place? And it's the kind of writing that line between, I can solve some of these problems, but then it would maybe not be centered for everybody. And so, um, yeah, it's just been a process of trying to get feedback from customers, where things and see what annoys me about it, if I'm pulling at it, or where I think it needs to be looser or tighter, and just moving along as the, as the designs go.
But I still, I still offer. Pretty much everything I started with, but just in slightly better variation, trying to improve the underlayer, maybe make it an inch longer, or attach it in a different way.
Passionistas: Yeah, that was going to be my next question, is about the sizing. Like, obviously, it, they come in, you know, small, medium, large, whatever, but is, is the cup size different too? Like, can you, are they almost sort of customized, or is it one size fits all, really?
Katie: So, on the, like, everything scales upward with the size grade. So, of course, it's the width goes bigger from extra small, small, medium, large XL. The length of that underlayer, And where you could scoot the pads to is also longer proportionally, but I do have a larger cup pad insert for the different sizes.
So previously I had the largest pad in the XL, and then medium large had the same size pad, and then extra small and small had the same size pad, and now I shifted it. Extra small is the same, and then small and medium, and then large and XL. But yeah, there are different size pads that come in at standard, and you could swap it out.
You know, it's a little channel kind of like with your sports bra. And so I sell it on a site where you could get an XL pad, you know, or you could get a smaller pad into an XL shirt if you wanted. You can also take them all the way out, um, if you wanted to, and just wear it as a top without the padding.
Um, so yeah, but the sizing, that is where it's kind of difficult, but I still, I've had, even as recently as yesterday, I had a customer email me saying, oh, do you have, a plus yet because she feels like the XL is a little tight and it's tough because I only have. Extra small through one XL. Um, but I know there's such a market for folks wanting the plus, but then it's, it's harder because just the height, you know, or the weight there of the chest and trying to account for that, for everybody.
Um, I think that's where the elastic comes into play for those other designers because then it just kind of. cinches it up under you and you know it's not going to write up. So that's where I'm still trying to kind of noodle through it would be on being able to design for plus and how I could do it without elastic.
Passionistas: That's great though that that's in, in your thought process and planning. Um, so what are your biggest sellers currently? What are, what are most people buying?
Katie: Hmm. Interestingly enough, people like, even though it's hot in the summer, I think inside the home or with like sleeping or cozy, people like the like three quarter or longer sleeve designs.
Um, but it really depends. It's kind of like, When I go to the pop up markets, what you wear ends up being what sells fastest. So if I'm wearing like the short sleeve one that's kind of like fitted, I have one that's like not peplum, but it sort of comes in at the waist and has a little some pleating there.
If I wear that one, they'll say, oh, like, that's cute. Yeah, let me grab that one in my size. And so it's sort of just like whatever you display for folks, they, then they can kind of see mannequin, they'll say, well, is it really going to cover or is it really going to be comfortable? Uh, so weirdly enough, whatever you wear sells.
Or if you're sending an email to the, to my list, I have a small list of customers and repeat buyers. If I say, hey, I got this in a new color, you know, then that's the style that, that will sell most right then. So it depends just a little bit on what, what people see, I think, then they can envision themselves in it.
Passionistas: Do you have plans to expand into other things?
Katie: Hmm, um, not necessarily yet. I have some, I think having a set is nice, especially like for gifting when people want to do matchy with the top and bottoms. So I have some bottoms which, then there's nothing exciting, special, different about it the way that the top is qualitatively different than other loungewear tops.
It's just that it's a super stretchy, cozy, bamboo top. And so I have a couple of pants. Um, so getting into something like matching or sets. is I'm like right there, but it's hard to keep all the things and all the colors and the sizes together. So, um, that would be probably the next is just expanding more apparel.
Um, I've had some requests for, cause this one, like the wrap style that I'm wearing and the under layer is somewhat detached here. They say, Oh, like if that's really nursing friendly, I've had, um, friends who recently gave birth and say, Oh my gosh, my cup size changed so much from Start of pregnancy through nursing and by the day I can't find any bra and so I've been living in your top and so I've had some requests for like nursing access or breastfeeding friendly which some of them kind of already are but to be more intentional about how to serve somebody who's nursing or postpartum, um, those kinds of things would be the same variation on a theme that I'd probably pursue next.
Passionistas: That's really smart. Um, and you have dresses now as well, right? Tell us about the dresses.
Katie: Yeah, very similar. I mean, same concept. One of them is literally like the shirt, you know, that comes in at the waist, but just lengthen the bottom. Um, actually my mom was just, Texting me, I think yesterday, two days ago, she wore the dress all day.
She went out to lunch with a friend and went to the grocery store. She's in Phoenix, so it's probably 120 degrees or whatever in Phoenix. And she's like, you know, then you don't have to wear a bra. You don't even have to wear pants. You're just in something really cozy, but it's Looks put together and everything is covered.
And, um, so yeah, similar and actually that one started because my best friend. Um, as her sleepwear, she doesn't want to wear like a pants top set. She wants to wear like a nightie. Wants it to be like a gown. So, I originally made that one for her, um, the first dress iteration so that she could have it be lounging around the house.
She hosts a lot, like. Friends staying over from out of town, you know, out of town family. And so she's just like living in the dress really.
Passionistas: That's amazing. As we're talking, I'm more and more and more conscious of how tight my bra is. And I was just like, I just want to get into one of those shirts right now.
Well, we also haven't talked about bra straps and how there are no, especially when you're in like the, the tank top kind of thing. Like I'm constantly fixing my bra strap that's falling down. There's. None of that now too.
Katie: Either it's too tight, you know, and then you're feeling it or it's loose and then it hangs off or whatever.
But yeah, for me, like the second I come home, even when I was wearing scrubs, you don't have to wear, you know, a push up bra or anything super tight or fancy. It would be one of those stretchy, you know, bra leather yoga bras. But even Even after wearing that all day, I come home and just want to rip it off.
And so it's just, I needed something cozy where I didn't feel the elastic, where I wasn't even wearing a shelf cami.
Passionistas: Yeah, I also see this as my salvation for walking the dog early in the morning. Oh yeah, because like I get up outta bed, I'm like, oh, do I have to put a bra on to walk the dog?
Katie: Oh yeah. And then the one time you don't, of course you know you're out there and the neighbor goes, oh, hey, let me chat with you about something.
And then you end up, yeah. And you're like, oh, great. Like, I wish I had thought of this. But yeah, whether it. Or even like in apartment living, um, when I lived in an apartment before, the mailboxes, you go across and down the elevator and walk past all the people and it's just like, uh, you know, I would zip on my hoodie or a vest or something just to kind of do it baggy.
But it's Houston, like, it's a million degrees outside and I'm wearing a hoodie just to avoid that. Like, why? You know, be in something more comfortable, so.
Passionistas: I think you should make a deal with Trader Joe's, where they carry, carry them in the store, and then people will buy them, because I constantly, Saturday morning, like, oh, I want to make us breakfast, and I have to run out to Trader Joe's first thing in the morning, and I do the same thing. It'll be like 100 degrees, and I'll put on a heavy sweater.
Oh, if people who, like Trader Joe's shoppers knew that this is, this existed, then they would pick it up, and then they'd always have it when they needed their it's not like it's going to be just a regular Trader Joe's run. A partnership with the places that people run out to CVS or whatever.
Katie: When they happen to be at their brawlest moment and like, wishing that they had something. Um, I, I like, and that's so funny because every time I explain the top to someone, they say, Oh, you should put it at. You know, wherever, and everybody has a great idea. You know, I think, too, like, you know, the gift shops at a hotel where, you know, you've spent all day in the sun or by the pool or whatever, and usually you're traveling with people either to meet family or whatever.
Whatever. And you finally get off the beach and you relax, you do your shower and you've got to go to dinner. It's like, okay, like, let's, you know, put this back on. Um, but yeah, hotel gift shop, even like the hospital gift shop, you know, for the breast cancer patients. And now Trader Joe's, I'll have to add that to my list too.
Passionistas: Spas too, like just at the end of a spa, when you don't want to, you know, you take a shower and then it's like, oh, I just want to relax. A spa chain like Burke Williams or something like that. Oh yeah.
I love the hospital idea too because as you said in the beginning and I alluded to, I had frozen shoulder about 10 years ago and I literally could not clasp a bra you know, Uhhuh, . Then that was the search for what do I do? You know? Yes, that's, this would've been the perfect solution. I ended up with the front closure bras and they were uncomfortable . Mm-Hmm, . And I also recently had major abdominal surgery and still the idea of putting a bra on now hurts. So, um. Yeah, it's just such a genius idea. You're really
Katie: A hundred percent. Yeah, my mom had rotator cuff surgery last year. And, um, she's a lawyer. She had to go to court like a week or two later, but she's empty nesting now, you know? And so it's like, what are you going to do? Show up early and have your colleague, you know, hook your bra up?
And you're like, no, she wore the top. She put like a blazer over it. She did it in an outfit, but like all week, you know, I had tops for her that she could wear. while she's going to court every day with her, you know, coat on over it, and just not wearing a bra, and then she didn't have to hook it, cause she couldn't bend her arm around after the rotator cuff.
And my mom, too, is a breast cancer survivor. So she had lumpectomy here, and they did radiation, and for a while I've had Ladies visit me when I'm doing my pop up market, say, oh my gosh, you know, I just had breast cancer surgery and they've, I've not been able to do an underwire or do a clamp here, especially if they do like lymph node stuff, um, where it can really like make a difference in your comfort quality of life or like for chemotherapy, you can put the port right here and not be wearing a bra, but you can be in something that's comfortable that you feel good in, but you're not just having to wear a. you know, the ugly gown that they give you, or some, you know, sloppy t shirt, you can actually wear something nice, but be comfortable. So there are, there's so many people that I want to get it to, but then it's just, like, it's, you know, I'm working on it, but yeah, that's, that's the
Passionistas: It will come in time.
Katie: Yes, of course.
Passionistas: And don't even get me started on the idea of airplane travel.
Katie: Oh, I haven't worn, I mean, To be honest, I mean, have I even had to wear a bra when I didn't want to since I started designing these? No, of course not. I've got a million, you know, all the samples or the colors I don't end up going with, you know, those are all my, you know, clothes now, so I have not worn a bra on a plane either.
That sounds so, that's like, That's heaven. That's the dream. And to look put together. I mean, I wish that I had known you at the beginning of COVID because I definitely, I'm still living the COVID lifestyle from the waist down. Um, but to be able to like do these Facebook Lives and Zooms and everything, and to be so comfortable and look put together is like, I think, you know, we all would have had different looking Zoom meetings had we known about you back then.
And that's still so much a reality. So many companies that now are either hybrid or still remote when they realized that they didn't have to have an office space for everybody to commute to now that everybody can do their work on Zoom. So I think for a lot of folks, you know, staying at home and not putting on your bra is now the new normal. So.
Passionistas: Totally. So what's the biggest challenge that you've faced through all of this and how did you overcome it?
Katie: Oh gosh, um, I think sort of what you'd asked before was how do I explain a new product to people and get it to them? I think that will still be and is still my challenge is marketing in general.
Um, I'm like a product focused person, so I can spend all day making it and tinkering with it and adjusting it and trying it on and perfecting the product, but the part of it where I can, you know, shout it out there or make the marketing about it and get it in front of people is sort of my weakest point.
So I think just putting it out there in general, because I know that it's And I think that's a good product and I know it can help people, but me overcoming those obstacles, whether they're financial like, okay, am I going to pay for ads or logistical, how to put it together and am I going to choose Google or social media or what, to just mindset and saying okay, nope, it is good enough.
And the people who don't want it and it doesn't work for it, they can move along and not being afraid of rejection or failure when you put something completely new out there. I think those combination of things make the marketing a new product aspect hardest for me, and I think it'll continue to be. Um, even as I hopefully get better at it, it'll still be harder for me than Designing a new product, which is like the fun and cool part.
And then having to sell the product, which is like the, okay, this is the actual work part for me.
Passionistas: Yeah. But once you start making your millions, you can hire a team and that'll all be taken care of. Sure. Yeah. I think you should take it to the tank.
Katie: Well, and I've had, whenever I do the pop up markets and I say, look, it's like this and why didn't anybody design it like this before?
I don't know. Cause men were designing clothing and they assumed. And that's what Sarah Blakely always says about her Spanx, you know, they had, people had put a, a strand of elastic in the waist and they always told women, well, it won't stay up if it doesn't have elastic. And she's like, how do you know that?
You know, and she did so many iterations on it where it just makes sense because women are designing our own products now, thankfully. And so I'll do this at my markets and kind of show the inner and people will say, oh, you need to go on Shark Tank. So. Maybe I do. I mean, could I be the next Sarah Blakely?
Oh my gosh, she's my idol. So, um, one day bra list for everybody.
Passionistas: I could, I could see it happening. I mean, it's an amazing, it's an amazing product. Um, so do you have like a tip or a tool that you use in your everyday life running the business that you can share with everybody?
Katie: I think in my everyday life, the only thing that I use regularly would be like calendar, you know, and that could be as simple as like Google calendar, but making yourself do the things that have to be done, you know, every Monday, you know, what are you doing?
Or, um, like I started doing the Profit First System, which is a popular book, uh, for, Any entrepreneurs, but in e commerce especially, where, okay, on each day you allocate, you know, you set the days and then you allocate your funds toward what you're going to spend. For certain expenses, so things like that, staying organized.
So I guess in a practical sense, I don't have a lot of high tech, you know, tech stack. I had tried, people use Trello or I had tried Monday. Um, and that's good. I think the more people you have on your team, The more you would need to use something like that, for sure. But for me, just like my one little calendar and to do list is, is kind of the only thing.
But forcing yourself to do the thing that you said you were going to do at that time is the hardest part.
Passionistas: Yeah, that's tricky. It's tricky as an entrepreneur. You always get sidetracked. So yeah. What's the biggest lesson you've learned about yourself while you've been doing this venture?
Katie: Oh my gosh. Probably just that Things are not going to seem easy even though you get there and get to it and it's going to be hard but do it anyway. Like that you'll only feel accomplished looking backward at it. You know that anybody who's approaching something new and even if it's just the very beginning Simple little thing like signing up for an LLC.
Like, well, I've got to look it up and I've got to fill in all these boxes and figure it out. Okay. And then what's the next step? Each step, you kind of feel like you don't know what you're doing. Um, but about myself, I think I always, like I mentioned, did well in school and things were always like, oh yeah, I'll just follow this clear path and do it.
But I think I learned that I can do difficult or uncertain things. Um, and yeah. I can accomplish them, but I'll only feel accomplished about them, like, later, once they're already done. And then it's okay to feel like you're scrambling or shooting in the dark at stuff and just kind of have that faith to keep going, um, even though you really don't have yourself figured out yet.
I think that's what I had to Make myself learn, because if you wait until you're confident in something in order to do it, it'll never get done. If you wait until you have enough research where you feel like you know everything about it, it would just take too long. I already take too long to do stuff, um, because of perfectionism, but if I really waited until I actually felt like I was confident enough to do it, none of it still would have happened quite yet.
Passionistas: So if you could go back in time to when you first decided to make this a business. What advice would you give yourself?
Katie: Yeah, to just, the, what do they say, that done is better than perfect? You know, to just put it out there and do it. Um, something that I've now been really reminding myself of, this month even, recently.
Have you guys heard that, um, I call it a business parable, but the one about the pottery teacher? The Pottery Instructor one. Oh, I love this. And I, I like to give credit where credit's due, but I don't remember where I even heard this one. Probably somebody gave it in a keynote and then somebody listened to that and put it in their book and somebody else gave it on their podcast interview for their book tour.
And then somebody else talked about it, but it's like the, um, Pottery 101 teacher, and I don't even know if it's based on a true story, but if you have, I guess the, as the legend goes, the pottery teacher has two sections of the class, Pottery 101, and all of the students are first timers, you know, they've never touched a pottery wheel or whatever, and one section say it's Monday, Wednesday, the other's Tuesday, Thursday class, but he tells one section of intro students, Okay, welcome to Pottery 101.
I'm going to be teaching you things and coaching you along the way, but you, you'll learn how to throw, you know, a flower pot, and at the end you'll be graded on, you know, how good your flower pot is. You just want to keep trying and make, make them better and better, better, and then you'll give me your most perfect one at the end, and that's what you'll be graded on, just your, your best quality of it, you know, um, the features of it at the end.
And then he tells the other section of the class. Okay, welcome to Pottery 101. I'll teach you things, but you'll be graded at the end on how many pots you throw. So if you throw more, you know, the more you throw, the better grade you'll get at the end. And so, of course, the people in that section, he's like, all you have to do is show up Tuesday, Thursday, and just keep making one.
As soon as you finish one, make another one. As soon as you finish, make another one. And then you can probably guess what happened is the class who was told to make it perfect, you know, they made some that were decent, but, you know, The class who were told, just keep doing it, just keep trying it, do more experience, do more reps, put in more hours and make as many as you possibly can.
Of course, theirs were in fact more perfect, or more beautiful, or less flawed, or whatever you want to call it, at the end of the class. And so, I think just that reminder that in this amount of time where I've probably wasted a lot of it. Like, not quite putting something out there, or I'll work for a few weeks on a design and say, well, like, maybe nobody wants this, and vaulted, and that was a few weeks of wasted effort, and instead of just putting it out there, getting feedback, trying it again, getting feedback, doing another one, getting feedback, I think I've probably done it.
Spent more time on trying to put something out there that's perfect, which, spoiler alert, it never is anyway because your customers will tell you exactly what's wrong with it as soon as they put it on. Um, rather than if I had just told myself in this amount of time just to do as many reps as possible at whatever the hard thing is, whether that's making an advertisement For social media or figuring out, you know, how to take product photos, just try as many as possible.
Then I probably would have been much further in the shorter amount of time by not holding myself to try to present something perfect because that just doesn't work. So that's what I've been kind of reminding myself lately.
Passionistas: So what's the question that we are not asking you either about the product in general or, or, or entrepreneurship in running your business?
Katie: Hmm. Um, I'm not sure what you're Well, what you're not asking. I guess with such a big pivot, um, people might be curious to think what that's like. And I think, um, because something, it sort of sparked me. I think what I expected maybe for you to ask based on your intro was you said, um, you asked your guests how they define success.
And I, and I think about that, especially with a big career pivot going from. Being in the clinic all day, seeing patients, um, and having a very structured day compared to being an entrepreneur where I have to figure out what I'm supposed to do all day to make this work. Um, and I think one of the interesting things to talk about is like how you do define success because for some people it can be like a dollar amount or a level of recognition or if I get my product into.
So, if you're not a big box store, then it's a success. But I think where I'm at now is how I define success is just that I don't dread Monday, you know, when you think about like the Sunday scaries and Like, oh my gosh, I've got like 35 patients on the schedule for tomorrow and I know I'm going to be running behind so I'm going to be stressed and I'm going to, you know, I don't even have two seconds to go to the bathroom if I have to.
And just thinking about on Sunday night, like, how you're feeling in your bed. Um, Then I, I think that's something that is worth talking about because entrepreneurship is hard and pivots are hard and scary. But if you're going from a place of Sunday scaries to, oh I'm excited about Monday because then I'll be able to email these other businesses or I'll be able to get back to work on the projects that I've been excited about, then I think that that's one way to define success.
So I, I guess that's what I would say about entrepreneurship or my business in general, is that I'm trying to go toward. That definition of success where I'm excited that Monday's coming.
Passionistas: I love that. I love that so much. So how can people get in touch with you and find these beautiful products?
Katie: Yes. So the brand is called Jia+Kate, which sometimes like I use a plus sign where I can, 'cause that's in my logo.
But on the, like for the website, it's spelled out. So J-I-A-A-N-D-K-A-T-E. So jiaandkate.com. Um. Instagram, it's Jia.And.Kate or Facebook, Facebook.com, JiaAndKate. Um, so all, it's spelled out on all those places. Uh, so that's where they can find the product. Um, or they can, I think I have contact on the website that they can email me at hello@JiaAndKate.com. So yeah, they can ask me anything on there or feel free to peruse the items. So I respond to every email. It's still just me. So they can really ask me anything that they want. Excellent.
Passionistas: And, um, one last two part question for you. Uh, what's your dream for yourself and what's your dream for women?
Katie: Ooh, um, I think my dream for myself, because it's pretty simple and I almost kind of just said it, is that I look forward to every day.
I think that having a life where You're really excited about what you're doing, whether that's career or whether that's, you know, in your home or the connections that you have with your family, just being excited about all the things that you get to wake up and do. That's really the dream for me because, and yes, you know, financial success is important because that allows you to have more of those things that you're excited about.
If you're excited about travel or having certain experiences, everything costs money. Um, but to me, if I get to have the experiences that I want and be excited about every single day, Who I get to connect with, what I get to do, um, the projects I get to work on, then that's what I want for myself. And for women, gosh, I think, well, I want that for all women too.
Whether you're excited about homesteading and homeschooling your kids or going off to work and being a CEO or anything in between, I think if you can be supported enough by your community, By the people in your life, friendships, family members, um, and get to do what you're excited about every day, then everybody would be happier.
Nobody should feel like they have to get up and have to do something that, that they don't love. So I really want that for people, however that looks in their own lives.
Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project. Since we're not only business partners, but best friends and real life sisters, we know how unique and truly special our situation is.
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